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Senator, I've got a great idea: let's tell the voters to ask your Navy buddies about what a great war hero you are!!
I think that before the week is out, there will be
My initial reaction to this was 'whoa....someone is gonna get their asses kicked' and I've gotten a few readers upset about my quickness to post such accusations from the Swift Boat Veterans.
Maybe I should have explained my position on this a little better - I guess I was anxious to post about this.
*Ahem*
Is any of this true? I dunno, but given that there are more than just one guy saying this adds just a bit more credence to the accuracy of their assertions about Kerry's character.
Should we all believe this? Again, I dunno. My gut feeling on this is that while some/most/all of these Swift Boat Vets weren't in Kerry's crew, they were operating in groups of 2 or 3 boats and I have to believe that they'd be able to verify/condemn the actions of a component of their unit; I mean, their lives depended on the actions of other members of the boat unit - wouldn't they have a bit more knowledge of them?
Another aspect of this is that the DNC and Kerry's campaign have already released the packs of lawyers threatening any and all television stations that air this commercial with lawsuits. The puzzling thought that creeps into my mind about the legal aspect is that if these are all blatant lies, why get lawyers all over the case? Yes, I realize that this commercial could be grounds for a 'defemation of character' civil suit, but the reaction makes me believe that there might be validity to the SBVT claims about Kerry....
And lastly, the entire 'I was a Vietnam Veteran' aspect of Kerry's campaign isn't really a factor in my consideration of his abilities. Yes - I actually DO think about voting for Kerry (I keep ALL options open ya know). He would rely upon his time in the Senate more to be POTUS than his time in Vietnam and quite frankly, I'm not really impressed with his stance on many issues, especially where the defense of this great nation is concerned.
If his time in Vietnam isn't a factor, then why bring up all this SBVT crap??
Simply because Kerry made it a factor in his campaign. Hell, he made it the primary focus of his acceptance speech at the Democratic Convention in Boston.
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killy said:
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deuddersun said:
The quotes came from this source Cait. If they aren't on the page directly, follow the links to
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Cait said:
Deudd, where did you get the information about Elliot and Hibbard? Just looking for a link, not
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deuddersun said:
Beth, as promised, - by the end of today I will have my post up responding to this outrage
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Kilabe said:
Nah, you ain't gotta pull no punches for me. And I love you too ya big lug!
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Comments on Great Blunders in the World of Politics
Mikey, how many of these guys actually served with Kerry? Not after him or before him or at the same time as him? Why does his entire crew speak up for him? I am so tired of the Republican attack dogs constantly trying to sully Kerry's War Record. They only do it because their guys, Bush & Cheney have nothing to stand on themselves. While Kerry was in Viet Nam, Cheney was getting arrested for DUI, twice! His excuse for avoiding military service with his 5 defferments was "he had other priorities"! And Bush! Fahgeddaboudit!
You know, I've spent over a week researching Kerry and his record in order to defend him at my blog and I thought maybe, just maybe the stupid shit was over and we could look at the Candidates as they are today and vote for the guy who relates to our current issues the best! Obviously not. Guess I'll have to do that side by side comparison of Kerry's record vs Bush's record after all.
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 07:56 AM ||This is what happens when you rush to post something before you verify it's veracity, Mikey!
CNN just ran the ad you link to. This was followed by Sen. John McCain appearing eith John Kerry stating flatly that the ad is batantly false and mis-leading!
In addition, the Bush Campaign has taken the high road and issued a statement disavowing the Ad stating that they will never question Sen. Kerry's service to our country. Kudo's to the President for that one! He just went up a notch or two in my book!
I'm still gonna do that comparison, though, somebody's gotta keep you Bush-whackers in line! LOL!
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 08:38 AM ||Oh, and Mikey, just because something's on TV don't make it true! If that were the case I'd be worried about Klingons and the Borg! Oh. Wait. I am Borg! Resistance is futile!
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 08:41 AM ||I realize that Kerry is (of course) going to come out and blast it.
Is this all 100% true?? Dunno, but I do know it isn't helpful, especially coming from some of these guys who DID serve with Kerry.
|| Posted by Mad Mikey, August 5, 2004 09:59 AM ||You miss the point, Mikey, none of it is true! When did these guys allegedly serve with Kerry? During his tour of duty, or before or after, stateside?
McCain calls the ad "dishonest" and "dishonorable". He claims ""It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," . He further states "I wish they hadn't done it," ... "I don't know if they knew all the facts."
From the article:
The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.
"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad. Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.
The entire article can be read here:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.mccain.ap/index.html
Two things more, at 3:30 today EST, Kerry's actual crew will be speaking about Kerry's service on CNN. I'm sure it will blow this bullshit right out of the water.
The second thing is: You can bet your sweet ass I'm doing a post on this, starring...guess who?
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 10:33 AM ||Mikey,
Those guys DID serve with Kerry. They DID see his cruelty, his treachery, his cowardice. They did NOT trust him. Of the 19 guys in the swift boat commander photo with Kerry, 2 support him. 4 do not comment. 2 are deceased. The rest are completely against him. Including his commanding officer. Including the guy who treated his first "Purple Heart wound".
Of course McCain doesn't like this- he actually likes Kerry, even if he is campaigning for Bush. And the crew on CNN- it's not like Kerry's people are gonna put anti-Kerry people up there. There will always be people who will blindly follow.
|| Posted by Beth, August 5, 2004 12:24 PM ||Mikey,
Here (http://wizbangblog.com/archives/UnfitCh3.pdf ) you will find Chapter 3 of the book "Unfit" about Kerry's Purple Hearts.
|| Posted by Beth, August 5, 2004 12:31 PM ||Deuddersun,
So, Kerry has some supporters from the Swift boats and some who oppose him. I personally don't care if he was medal hunting or not, we both know it happens, we have both seen it with our own eyes. The issues that bother me are the ones about his return from Viet Nam. The Winter Soldier ordeal, and how that propaganda was used against our POW's. He betrayed his brothers in arms, knowingly and willingly. I can forgive him for his actions, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't be held accountable for them.
Oh and one other thing. I am tired of people denigrating the National Guard. Service is service. A majority of the folks who parrot that tripe have never served a day in any uniform. It's not like it is a documented fact that LBJ refused to mobilized the Reserve and Guard forces out of political fear.
The true test of the question is when you ask yourself if you would have gone into the Reserves/Guard.
|| Posted by Kilabe, August 5, 2004 01:12 PM ||Um, okay Beth. And the Tooth Fairy left me a million bucks for a tooth last night. Yada yada yada. The only thing stuff like this does is make the Republicans look like Repugnant-cans! CNN just had the Green Beret on who was the guy Kerry saved, along with the knucklehead who wrote this stupid book. The guy DID NOT serve with Kerry. He was comanding another Swift Boat on the OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER!Get your facts straight Girlfriend, you're really reaching here.
This is gonna come back and bite the Republicans right in the ass. As ususal, since they don't have a "record" they can run on, they resort to childish name calling and expect those of us who actually do "Fire a Few Neurons" to swallow their bullshit and say, "OhMiGawd! Like, they were right all along! OhMiGawd! Like , Can you believe it!"
Good luck! And you say I'm a moonbat! Yeah. Right.
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 01:16 PM ||You're right about one thing, Kilabe, I wouldn't have joined the guard/reserve. I'd as soon have joined the Boy Scouts. I enlisted in the United States Marine Corps.
And you're sick of the shit about the "Guard"? I guess that's because you're too young to remember that the "Guard" was a way to avoid Viet Nam without running to Canada. The guard of 40 years ago in no way resembles the Guard of today. I couldn't have gotten into the Guard back then. You had to have power and money to get into either the Guard or the Coast Guard, Average Joes couldn't make it, it was clogged with Politician's kids.
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 01:22 PM ||Is it just me or is there anyone else out there sitting on the sidelines for now and playing the wait-and-see game? I'll wait till the book comes out and the evidence is examined in full....
But OT--The Kerry campaign and DNC are threatening to sue any stations that run the Swiftboat group's ad.
|| Posted by jaws, August 5, 2004 01:24 PM ||uh, d....
If I'm not mistaken, Kerry could have been in trouble for NOT saving the Green Beret's life. Of course the guy is full of gratitude towards Kerry- I would be if he'd dragged me out of the water. That goes without saying. As for the guy who wrote the book- who cares if HE was on the other side of the river. Check his documentation. He has eye witness accounts from people who were on the Swift Boat with Kerry, as well as his commanding officer and others within the chain of command. Did the guy have to spend every waking minute with Kerry in order for him to have any credibility with you? Or is it that he just has to have a (D) behind his name?
|| Posted by Beth, August 5, 2004 01:50 PM ||d.
I joined the Corps too, but 2 years after my 6 AD, I went into the Guard. There are some very fine people there. While I may not be old enough to know about the guard 'back in the day', I do know a bunch of old-timers who have spent 30 some odd years in the Guard and were individually activated. They aren't politicians kids or rich, just poor Mississippi folk, like me.
And I'm sure that you can't be of Viet nam age because old codgers can't operate computers. :P
Semper Fi, Bro.
|| Posted by Kilabe, August 5, 2004 02:00 PM ||Jaws - first smart post I've seen here, including my own. Wait and see. As for the DNC suing, almost right, it's another ad that even the Bush camp took exception to that they were suing over, but, I disagree with that. I don't like any attempt ro surpress free speech by either side.
Beth - I'll let you know when I post an answer to this. Unlike some on the Right who refuse to see F-911, I prefer to "know" my enemy. You can be sure I'll read the book.
Kilabe - Excellent post!!! Actually I don't operate my computor, my daughter does! I just sit here getting drunk and hollaring my posts at her like a PI DI! LOL! Now that I know your a Bro I'll get your back and respond more respectfully. Notice I didn't say I'd agree with you, but my disagreements will be more respectfull.
Saepius Exertus, Semper Fidelis, Frater Infinitas
(Often tested, Always Faithful, Brothers Forever)
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 5, 2004 02:39 PM ||Nah, you ain't gotta pull no punches for me. And I love you too ya big lug!
|| Posted by Kilabe, August 5, 2004 10:58 PM ||Beth, as promised, - by the end of today I will have my post up responding to this outrageous bullshit. Some highlights will include (contrary to your assertions):
None of the men in the ad, or who are members of SBVT ever served on either of John Kerry's two boats.
Division Commander Grant Hibbard:
"The [Kerry] campaign did post an evaluation of Kerry by Hibbard. Hibbard's evaluation was brief and incomplete because Hibbard oversaw Kerry's service for only about two weeks. Kerry's duty under Hibbard included 'counter infiltration operations against Viet Cong forces. Engaged in combat operations.' Hibbard marked a few performance categories, noting that Kerry's initiative, cooperation, and bearing ranked among the top few. But unlike other evaluators who wrote about specific actions by Kerry, Hibbard did not do so, providing this explanation: 'The short period LTJG Kerry was attached to Coast Division 14 prevents further evaluation.'"
George Elliot's memory also seems to be faulty. Well, at the very least, either he lied back then or he's lying now, you choose. Elliot is the guy who submitted Kerry for his Silver Star! Doh!
"After leaving [Coast Division 14], Kerry went on to command six-man swift boats. One of the evaluations from that period says that Kerry, in an event during what was supposed to be Christmas truce, 'effectively suppressed enemy fire and is unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action.' The report was signed by two of Kerry's commanders: George Elliott and Joseph W. Streuli. But both said in telephone interviews yesterday that they did not recall the fighting.
Kerry himself has denied killing 20 VC, but these two knuckleheads signed the report.
Further:
"'In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed,' wrote one of Kerry's commanding officers, Lieutenant Commander George Elliott. 'He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. . . . LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach.'"
So, was he lying then, or is he lying now?
What you have here is a group of Vets who are still pissed at Kerry for his Congressional Testimony and who have been sponsored by the same group of Texas conservatives who attacked John McCain's record in his 2000 Republican Primary Campaign. Instead of "Anybody But Bush", the cry of the Left, they adhere to "Nobody But Bush", even to the point of attempting to discredit one of their own, Sen. John McCain.
It had been my intention to steer clear of the events of the past regarding both George Bush's record and John Kerry's record,(and the attendent muckraking), and focus instead on the current political climate and why I believe John Kerry should be the next President of the United States, but this despicable bullshit has really pissed me off. So, the gloves are off. Let the games begin.
This is gonna be fun!
d.
|| Posted by deuddersun, August 6, 2004 05:50 AM ||Deudd, where did you get the information about Elliot and Hibbard? Just looking for a link, not questioning the validity of the information!
|| Posted by Cait, August 6, 2004 07:47 AM ||The quotes came from this source Cait. If they aren't on the page directly, follow the links to the individuals quoted above. They will open up a new window with a brief history of the men's relationship to Kerry.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth
d.
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